Curse

LifesRestorer · Jun 15, 2008, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smurf Minions

*ahem* RC

12chars

*ahem* 3 D/E's spamming covered deep wounds every 3 seconds + sig hum on RC + how the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO do you RC yourself. orite.

no need for 12 characters.

Snow Bunny · Jun 15, 2008, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Nah, buffing the duration would make it more mindless, the recharge needs to be 15r so you don't have to run a 3rd stance.

The way Bull's Charge is generally played is trying to land a bunch of KDs and then pick one to capitalise on (Frenzy + unload adren), increased duration won't really help here.

Yeah, that's what I meant, thanks. I suppose I was just saying that the 25-33 isn't really all that significant of a buff, certainly not one to get it playable.

Bugsy · Jun 16, 2008, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Hi my name's Cleave. I sucked so bad as an Axe Elite, they made me an unlinked non-elite.

Problem. · Jun 16, 2008, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Pulling back the recharge or cost is probably the way to go. Swapping the condition order would probably kill the skill, not that I have a problem with that, but Cripslash didn't cause the same kind of uproar. The problem is that as soon as RC gets trained by Humility against a relentless flood of deep wounds and 100+ damage attack skills, teams implode very quickly, so it's kind of a combination of everything.

If it were reduced to a more opportunistic skill, then it probably wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem.

In other news, Attacker's Insight is still deceptively broken.

Crippling Slash didn't get the same reaction because its Crippled, not Deep Wound. Also, people have been using Crip Shots since hte beginning of time, where Crippled is always covered anyway. Crippled is not as debilitating as DW. DW makes heals not as efficient, and leaves players prone to deaths. Crippled may increase DPS to a target because of the snare, but it wont stop some of the healing Monk's throw at it.

*edit* I'd also like to comment on everyone complaining about random buffs. I have no problem's with them because Izzy is just trying to bring other skills to viability. As long as they aren't broken in the process, buff away. I must add however that nerfs need to taken care off as well, if you are going to buff things.

Tyla · Jun 16, 2008, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Problem.

*edit* I'd also like to comment on everyone complaining about random buffs. I have no problem's with them because Izzy is just trying to bring other skills to viability. As long as they aren't broken in the process, buff away. I must add however that nerfs need to taken care off as well, if you are going to buff things.

Nor do I. The only thing I have a problem with is when they're skills such as Symbolic Strike that got buffed a little when it's already such a gimmicky skill.

DreamWind · Jun 17, 2008, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Productivity

The second is, now that we've got PVE/PVP split skills, why the hell can't we just blow up problem skills. The lack of any major hit to wounding strike to me shows Izzy is just completely out of touch with balance in this game. Previosuly it would have been we can't nerf this because of PVE. Now it's just we don't nerf it because we don't understand the fundamental balance in our game.

I couldn't have said it better myself. No excuse anymore.

Riotgear · Jun 17, 2008, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Problem.

*edit* I'd also like to comment on everyone complaining about random buffs. I have no problem's with them because Izzy is just trying to bring other skills to viability. As long as they aren't broken in the process, buff away. I must add however that nerfs need to taken care off as well, if you are going to buff things.

The problem with random buffs is that they're often to dumb skills, particularly direct-damage abilities and overly-conditional stuff, or complete misfires of skill design like Escape that aren't going to be made viable via simple number-tweaking. Their attempts to do so keep producing skills that are overpowered in some absurd gimmick or other and completely useless in everything else. Meanwhile, well-designed skills that have fallen out of favor (i.e. Blessed Light) get ignored.

If we're going to get buffs, we need sane buffs, not turd polishing.

JR · Jun 17, 2008, 08:31 AM // 08:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Meanwhile, well-designed skills that have fallen out of favor (i.e. Blessed Light) get ignored.

Blessed Light in any reasonable form will never get used while we have Word of Healing in its retarded state.

Why he chose to buff a straight red bars elite to that level is beyond me. Multi purpose elites like Blessed Light are far healthier for the game.

Riotgear · Jun 17, 2008, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Why he chose to buff a straight red bars elite to that level is beyond me. Multi purpose elites like Blessed Light are far healthier for the game.

Mainly because he wanted to kill LoD and there needed to be something left to push red bars up. Not that I agree with that move in the slightest.

JR · Jun 17, 2008, 10:24 AM // 10:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Mainly because he wanted to kill LoD and there needed to be something left to push red bars up. Not that I agree with that move in the slightest.

WoH serves a completely different purpose to that of the old LoD.

LoD was a party heal and a self heal (where most other self heals sucked). When it was nerfed it never going to be replaced by WoH, it was replaced by SoR paragons, PwK Rits and so on. The party healing ability was the backbone of the skill, and no direct heal could replace that.

WoH buff came from left field, and was largely unneccesary. Direct heals were previously fairly weak, but that was fine because people just got better with prots to mitigate damage.

Note that I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm disagreeing with Izzy.

LifesRestorer · Jun 17, 2008, 11:03 AM // 11:03

as does BL serve a completely different purpose to that of WoH. It's bar compression. the problem with it right now is that it's too expensive.

change back to 5 recharge, 5 energy, slightly reduce heal.
heal target ally for X and remove 1 hex and 1 condition from target foe. if a hex is removed, lose 5 energy.

JR · Jun 17, 2008, 12:10 PM // 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifesRestorer

as does BL serve a completely different purpose to that of WoH. It's bar compression. the problem with it right now is that it's too expensive.

It's a different tool, but it fills the same slot - which WoH and LoD don't. It's just a direct heal with some utility, so the rest of your bar can make up for its inefficiency. Were WoH nerfed back out of play I think we would see more BLight Divine/Heaven's bars, which are infinately more interesting.

The Meth · Jun 17, 2008, 12:57 PM // 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

The problem with random buffs is that they're often to dumb skills, particularly direct-damage abilities and overly-conditional stuff, or complete misfires of skill design like Escape that aren't going to be made viable via simple number-tweaking. Their attempts to do so keep producing skills that are overpowered in some absurd gimmick or other and completely useless in everything else. Meanwhile, well-designed skills that have fallen out of favor (i.e. Blessed Light) get ignored.

If we're going to get buffs, we need sane buffs, not turd polishing.

cmon, [Symbolic Strike] totally has its place in a balanced build.

Snow Bunny · Jun 17, 2008, 05:26 PM // 17:26

I do wish Izzy would buff Boonprot and Blight into use.

Those > WoH in terms of sheer sexiness.

Tab · Jun 17, 2008, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

I do wish Izzy would buff Boonprot and Blight into use.

Those > WoH in terms of sheer sexiness.

QFT. LoD needs buffing for PvP too.

urania · Jun 18, 2008, 10:09 AM // 10:09

the problem is that izzy hates(hated) boon so he killed it when the first chance appeared.

Kaon · Jun 18, 2008, 10:18 AM // 10:18

WoH is so necessary because most damage mitigation techniques got hurt.

Air eles got nerfed to uselessness.
Ward against Melee got nerfed (which is a direct nerf to any midliner including water eles)
Aegis got nerfed
Kiting got nerfed: Running away causes crithits, which used to be fine, untill there was a weapon that deals 100damage that way. The amount of kiting you see in a game today is almost non-existant compared to 2years ago.
Powerblock>water ele

All these nerfs meant direct physical damage could make a huge leap forward, forcing the nessecity of a superheal. Some of these nerfs weren't that bad in their own respect (especially aegis) but they do add to the fact that without WoH stuff dies really fast.

The game is very numberdependant right now, which skill heals the most or deals the most damage. This is of course always important but there used to be other things to consider as well. Making a game where we could really see blessed light utilised (or even rebuffed boonprots for that matter) as we saw 2 years ago will require a huge overhaul, something izzy's dartboard is simply not capable of. I feel as the game lost most of its complexity. If something takes damage we just heal it. If we need to kill stuff fast we just take a lot of warriors and cspacebar. Now 2 or 3 years ago issues like these were around as well (like thumpers) but things just weren't so simple. You'd take ward against foes, or eprod blinding flash used correctly. The recent nerf to bsurgers is another one in a long line of nerfs to simplify the game.

One other great example of this is the nerf to inspiration magic february 2006, and then buffing gole 2 years later. Inspiration magic gave way to a lot of interesting possibilities and playstyles, which also rewarded you for being good. Glyph is a static push-the-button energy gain which has done the game more harm than good.

I once listened a radio show called Critical Hit where some old guildwars players interviewed Izzy, Morello, and Sirling about gamebalance. What izzy said was: "I think rock paper scissors is the most balanced game there is." This made me cry. Though it does explain a lot about this game. It completely explains the imbalances in snowball fight, why he thinks exploding presents are fair and fun and why he thinks it doesnt matter that avalanche is 500times better than yellow snow.

JR · Jun 18, 2008, 10:24 AM // 10:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

I once listened a radio show called Critical Hit where some old guildwars players interviewed Izzy, Morello, and Sirling about gamebalance. What izzy said was: "I think rock paper scissors is the most balanced game there is." This made me cry. Though it does explain a lot about this game.

It's the easy way out of balancing games, used by M:TG as a well known example.

Instead of actually trying to achieve complete balace (which is tricky but generally more rewarding) you just cycle the meta with buffs and nerfs that aren't really aimed at achieving 'balance' at all. It prevents the game from becoming stale, but at the same time you can never reach the peak of balance that a game like Guild Wars really needs to be competitive.

That's what Izzy needs to realize; build wars works in M:TG because of the way it works, but really it's just not suitable for Guild Wars. It makes it less enjoyable, less skill based, and discourages the guilds at the top.

Problem. · Jun 18, 2008, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

It's a different tool, but it fills the same slot - which WoH and LoD don't. It's just a direct heal with some utility, so the rest of your bar can make up for its inefficiency. Were WoH nerfed back out of play I think we would see more BLight Divine/Heaven's bars, which are infinately more interesting.

That bar is more interesting, but it suffers from a lack of small prot, and it needs Glyph to power it.

My overall gripe with it however is that it can't really move health bars. As a result, I feel that at least 80% of dmg has to be prevented for it to really shine.

Also, that bar really catered to the build dR was running at the time with the Mind Blast Split ele. Its really not as effective as a Monk would like when sitting 8v8, at least not me anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

It's the easy way out of balancing games, used by M:TG as a well known example.

Instead of actually trying to achieve complete balace (which is tricky but generally more rewarding) you just cycle the meta with buffs and nerfs that aren't really aimed at achieving 'balance' at all. It prevents the game from becoming stale, but at the same time you can never reach the peak of balance that a game like Guild Wars really needs to be competitive.

That's what Izzy needs to realize; build wars works in M:TG because of the way it works, but really it's just not suitable for Guild Wars. It makes it less enjoyable, less skill based, and discourages the guilds at the top.

In terms of balance, rock paper scissors is definately the most balanced any game can get. However, even in rock paper scissors, one person can seemingly dominate another using psychology. I tend to do this a lot.

You are right, what Izzy is doing now is killing one playstyle, and promoting another with his skill balancing, which is really not in the best interest of the game.

What he needs to do, is stop with the garbage skill balances for the sake of it, and stop killing playstyles. Spike, Pressure (Physical, Hex, Condis), Split, "Balanced" should all be viable playstyles, and no one should be better than the other.

I dont agree with buffing Boon Prots though. Boon Prots are the monk equivalents of the current SoH/Conjure buffed frontliners and take the finesse out of the game.

JR · Jun 18, 2008, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Problem.

In terms of balance, rock paper scissors is definately the most balanced any game can get.

Agreed, but at the same time it's also the most imbalanced. One autobeats another which autobeats another which autobeats the first. Balanced on a meta level (as all three options are equally as powerful) but not on a micro level (because of the very one sided nature of the options). It's like Guild Wars with omega hex builds, omega physical and omega spike. Hex beats phsyical which beats spike which beats hex. Not a game I think any of us want to play.